Last modified: 2008-02-17 by rob raeside
Keywords: lordship of ireland | crowns: 3 |
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![[Banner of arms of Lordship of Ireland]](../images/g/gb_loi.gif)
based on Wikipedia
This flag of the Lordship of Ireland, which dates from the Elizabethan period
is very similar to the arms of the Earls of Cork and Orrery. According to the image information
on Wikipedia, this is not a real flag but a historical banner of arms, made to represent the Lordship in Wikipedia
timelines.
Ron Lahav, 2 January 2008
The creator of the image says it is not an official flag, but is based
on the arms of the Lordship. If the arms were indeed the arms at that
time, it would seem to me that the banner of arms would be an
officially legitimate flag at the time. Of course, this does not imply
that such a flag was actually used.
The Wikipedia article
says that the Lordship did not have an official flag (an interesting statement
in itself - in what sense did other entities have an official flag at that
time?) but that the arms (Azure, three crowns Or, bordure Argent) were found to
be the arms of the Lordship by a commission established by Edward IV, who
reigned during the relevant time. The article does not give sources for this and
Ron says to disregard it. However, Ron also says it dates from the Elizabethan
period, hinting that he might know some more about its origin.
It appears that the flag (and arms?) is non-historical.
As for similarities to other arms, surely the three crowns on blue are derived
from the arms of Munster, the province containing Cork.
Jonathan Dixon, 2 January 2008
There is an earlier connection with these arms and Ireland. According to
'Historic heraldry of Britain' by Sir Anthony Wagner (Chichester, Phillimore,
1972) pp.53-54, by letters patent of 3rd January 1386, King Richard II
authorised Robert de Vere, Marquess of Dublin and Earl of Oxford, to quarter the
arms shown with his existing arms (quarterly gules and or a mullet argent in the
first quarter), so long as de Vere should hold the lordship of Ireland.
The arms of three crowns (without the bordure) were often attributed at this
time to St Edmund, one of England's patron saints, and since Richard had granted
the use of the arms of another of England's patron saints, St Edward the
Confessor, to the Dukes of Surrey, Exeter and Norfolk, who were likewise the
King's favourites, this grant may have been on the same principle.
Note that Wagner says the 'lordship' of Ireland; another source says de Vere was
made Duke of Ireland (http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISH%20NOBILITY%20MEDIEVAL1.htm#_Toc141154294).
Wagner goes on to say, 'There are some (but not, I think, conclusive) grounds
for thinking that the same coat, perhaps in consequence of this grant, came to
be looked upon as that of Ireland (Gentlemen's Magazine 1st June 1845, vol.115
pp603-7 "Were three crowns the ancient arms of Ireland?"; and J. Archaeological
Institute vol.9 p.23, J.G. Nichols, "The descent of the Earldom of Oxford").'
De Vere raised a rebellion in 1387, was defeated in battle and had to flee
abroad, where he died in 1392. All his titles were declared forfeit in 1387, so
he never got to enjoy them for very long. A floor tile has been found in Essex
decorated with the arms, so perhaps they appeared on an armorial banner.
I've been unable to find any arms attributed to the Lord of Ireland in the
thirteenth century rolls.
So, what may have happened is:
1) since the Lord of Ireland is the king of England, there are no separate arms
for the lordship in the thirteenth century
2) Richard II grants a differenced version of the arms of St Edmund to Robert de
Vere to use while he is Duke of Ireland
3) Because of the terms of the grant, nearly one hundred years later these arms
are assumed to be those of the lordship of Ireland
Ian Sumner, 3 January 2008